Who Is The Real Bully?

"Nearly a dozen of high school journalists walked out of a lecture by Dan Savage, the prominent ant-bullying advocate that pioneered the 'It Gets Better' campaign. His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle. Mr Savage called the defectors 'pansy-assed' and would not back down from his comments. I thought this would be about anti-bullying,' Rick Tuttle, the journalism adviser for Sutter Union High School in California, told Fox News. 'It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs."

This is the description of the youtube video I am going to be addressing. We will see who the real bully is and why "tolerance" has no place for the militant homosexuals who will ridicule, mock and belittle any and all who oppose their worldview.

I am going to break this video down and demonstrate where Mr. Savage not only ripped scripture out of context but also gave us all a lesson on how to commit logical fallacies!

@0:50 Dan says we should ignore the BS in the bible.

Response
Sadly, Dan assumes that the bible is full of BS and does not demonstrate that it is. As we will see he brings up other issues like slavery, etc but this does not show the bible is BS and should be ignored.

Anyone who even glances at my blog will see that the purpose this blog exists is to defend the historic Christian faith. I would recommend the book :

"I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist".
 http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615


I am not going to give a defense for God's existence and the reliability of the bible in this post, but right off the start we need to question his assumption that the bible is BS. If his assumption is wrong then instead of sticking our head in the sand and "Ignoring it" we may want to listen to the omniscient Creator who knows all!

(1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV) 
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


@0:50 Here Dan claims that the bible is a "pro-slavery" book and slave owners use to wave the bible over their slaves head's

Response

This is an old claim that keeps getting "parroted" by those who want to attack the bible. These claims have been answered over and over again. I realize some may have not seen how these claims are answered so I have written a brief reply to this claim that the bible supports slavery:



We need to remember that much of the OT Israel was under a theocracy meaning God, him self was their ruler. Israel had to obey the civil, ceremonial and moral laws of God.

So for example eating certain foods or wearing certain clothes were forbidden because they were to be separate from the pagan nations around them. We are told in

Mathew 5:17 " “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

So when Jesus took on a human nature and came to earth and was crucified and rose from the dead he had fulfilled the law.

So we as Christians do not follow the civil and ceremonial laws because Christ fulfilled the law. However Jesus reaffirms that we are to keep the moral law (The 10 commandments).

As far as slavery goes let me say a couple of things

1-Slavery back then is not to be equated with the slavery of the south.

Leviticus 25 points out several things for us to show that slavery then was not like the 1800s

-God instructed Israelites to not mistreat slaves:

Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

...you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

...you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

2-Injuring a slave merited punishment (Exodous 21:20) and killing a slave meant the owner himself would face the death penalty

Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."

So slavery in the OT was not the same as that in the 1800s

Secondly many slaves volunteered to work as a slave because it meant them and their families would be taken care of.

Exodous 21:5-6 " But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever."



The Old Testament is clear in its position on involuntary slavery: it was punishable by death:

Exodus 21:16 
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death."

Deuteronomy 24:7 
"If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you." 

Thirdly, The fact that God permitted such things as slavery does NOT mean the bible justified it.

In Mathew 19:4 Jesus addressing the issue of divorce he told the Jews that God permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts.

Permitting certain things and Condoning them are not the same regardless of how bad the skeptic wants to assault the bible, this argument fails for the reasons pointed out above!



There have been numerous responses to this claim. I would suggest Dr. Paul Copan's book:

(http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Monster-Testament/dp/080107275)


2-As far as his comments that slave owners using the bible to justify slavery is irrelevant. The fact that some people misuse the bible like the KKK or other groups is not a problem with the author but rather the one reading it. Charles Darwin's writings were FULL of racist venom:

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla (Darwin 1887:156)."
So should we blame Darwin's work for the KKK? Something tells me Mr. Savage would not go for that! To claim that because the bible has been abused is the fault of the author is just absurd!



@1:40 Dan, refers to Sam Harris, in asking the question "If the bible could get something wrong as something simple like slavery, then why not on something complicated like human sexuality:

Response 

Some things need to be pointed out:

1-The bible does not condone slavery just as the bible does not condone divorce but it was permitted.

2-The evidence certainly does not show that one is "born gay". However even if one was born gay the bible is clear that the behavior, or acting on the homosexual desires is where the sin comes in.

Because man is fallen and sinful we all have evil, fallen desires. The fact we may feel a certain way does not make it right to ACT  on those desires. A married man may see other women he finds attractive and it is a natural instinct but certainly he would not justify his behavior as being natural and thus not morally wrong.

So the bible does not really say if one is born gay or not. I do not suspect they are and the scientific evidence certainly does not show that they are. The bible does speak to homosexual activity as being sinful.

3- Sam Harris is an out-spoken atheist and to then appeal to an objective morality to say that slavery is wrong is laughable.  For people to know slavery is wrong we MUST  know what is right.

Like C.S Lewis, said he would not know a crooked line unless you first have a straight line. You do not know a behavior is wrong unless there is an unchanging standard for what is right.

Here is a great article by Dr. Craig on the Moral Argument   
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument-for-god

Here is Dr. Craig answering Sam Harris objection's
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/sam-harris-on-objective-moral-values-and-duties

Here is the debate Dr. Craig had with Sam Harris. You can decide for yourself what arguments are better:






@1:45-2:15 Dan continues to mock and twist scripture asking why don't we stone women today for the same offense

Response

The answer is pretty simple. Because we are NOT Israel Dan! We are not under a theocracy like Israel was and we do not follow the civil and ceremonial laws because they were fulfilled in Christ.  We do however follow the moral law and having sex before marriage is still sin and unless it is repented of and the person throws himself at the mercy of Christ, then on Judgement day they will reap what they have sowed.

If you want to mock and ridicule the scriptures Mr. Savage then present an actual argument. Ranting about how much you hate the bible and then building straw man arguments may make you look really cool in front of a bunch of high school atheists, but I assure you sir, that if you used those same arguments against a trained apologist he would level you in ten seconds.


@2:17-3:00 Dan informs those in the crowd to let the Christians (who walked out on him during his tantrum) that he was done beating up the bible and how they were pansies when pushed.

Response

Done beating up the bible? You made false accusations about slavery, you took the OT scriptures that were for Israel and tried to apply them to us today and claim you have beat up the bible?  What you have done is give straw-man arguments and ranted and called names like a child.

Christians actually got up and walked out NOT because you hurt their feelings and you just "beat up the bible". They walked out because you are the one who has the microphone and nobody their can publicly get on a microphone and challenge each of your bogus claims and cross examine you.  Real easy to throw mud when people are not allowed to have a microphone to challenge you!

Secondly, you sir are the only bully I see in that clip as you belittle the bible which millions of people would give their life for and have died for and then you turn to calling names and taunting them like a child.

You have an open invitation on this blog ANYTIME  to come on this blog and present your arguments.

Granted, I am not in highschool and you are not the one controlling who can speak or ask you questions but I would LOVE  to engage you on the arguments you brought up to mock the bible.

It is no secret who the real bullies are. Homosexuals do not just want tolerance but DEMAND you accept and gleefully approve of their actions or they will attack you relentlessly!

Why I do not dislike or have anything personally against Mr. Savage I do take offense to making straw-man arguments against the bible and resorting to name calling and ridicule, all the while giving a talk on "anti-bullying".  It is clear who the real bully is!

Great White Throne

So blessed to have men of God like Dr. Lawson who is a powerhouse!

(Revelation 20:11-15 ESV)

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Jennifer Knapp on Larry King Part 3

Part 3

@ 40 seconds in Jennifer, says that she has people who give her spiritual guidance and the Pastor Bob, is not her Pastor and so should not be advising her.

Response

There are a few things that need to be clarified:

1-Bob, does not have to be her pastor in order to speak truth into her life. Bob, seems like he cares for her and it is out of a sense for love that he is going after her to try and properly exegete the text and tell her what the bible clearly says about this issue.

2-As a Christian we have duties to stand up for truth. Even if Jennifer, never repents of her lifestyle, the fact that she is claiming that the homosexual lifestyle is not a conflict with scripture then she is misleading people. The fact she is a celebrity means she will influence many people and thus needs to be publicly challenged on her claims. To sit by and not stand up for truth and let people be decieved maybe easy, but it is NOT loving!

                                   2 Corinthians 10:5

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."




@ 1:37 As pastor Bob is talking about the woman caught in adultery Jennifer, interrupts and says that it is a massive  implication to say one can not be a lesbian and a Christian.

Response

Can one live in outright sin and rebellion to Christ and still be a Christian?

While it is true that in this life we will never get to a point of perfection and be sinless, we are to repent from sinful behavior and be grieved and broken over our sin.  The scriptures tell us this repeatedly!


               (1 John 1:6-7 ESV)
           "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."






(1 John 2:3-6 ESV)
"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."





(1 John 3:7-10 ESV)
"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

The verses are very clear that to walk blatantly in sin and to make a PRACTICE  of sin, demonstrates that you are not a follower of Christ.






@2:00 Pastor Bob, hits the nail on the head. Jennifer, before was asking why she was in the hot seat and why was Bob, not in the hot seat because he had sinned before as well.

Response

The reason why is that Jennifer, does not acknowledge that homosexual behavior is a sin! Jennifer, will not acknowledge she is in sin and earlier argued that the bible and homosexuality were compatible.  It is AMAZING she does not catch this!


@4:05 Ted Haggard, joins the conversation and after a few remarks goes on to say that why both Jennifer, and Bob, have good points the main thing that needs to be emphasized is a personal relationship with Jesus.

Response

Sadly this seems to be the battle cry in American evangelicalism and it is absurd!  In order to have a relationship with Jesus, we MUST  believe certain doctrinal truths.

Dr. Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes have written the book "Convictions Without Compromise"
 http://www.amazon.com/Conviction-Without-Compromise-Standing-Christian/dp/0736922202

They point out on page 134,  that in order to be regenerated one must believe certain things:

1-The need for salvation (Human sinfulness)

2-Must believe in ONE God

3-Must believe that salvation is dependent upon God's grace

4- Must put there faith in Jesus to save them.

5- Jesus is God (John 8:24)

6-Jesus was raised physically from the dead (Romans 10:9-11)

To stress that Christianity is just about relationships is to mislead people. I know that today doctrine is considered to be a "dirty word" but one can NOT  be a Christian without believing certain truth's and one of them is confessing Jesus as Lord!

I would again point back to:


(1 John 3:7-10 ESV)
"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."


@4::30 Ted, goes on to say that we all have sinned and he accepts us all anyway and the journey will not be complete until we see him face to face.

Response


While it is true of course that we all sin, as I have said numerous times that we should be grieved over are sin, turn from are sin, and should not make a PRACTICE of sin!  Ted is confusing the fact that we all do sin with Jennifer, who refuses to acknowledge that she is in sin and will live blatantly rebellious to what Christ has told us in His word.  Please look at a few of the scriptures I posted earlier in 1 John which speak to this issue.


@4:45 Ted, then says that while both have sinned they should not judge eachother which Jennifer agrees with

Response


The amazing thing is that a minute ago when Bob, said she was in sin she said that she did not agree that homosexuality was a sin, and now she agrees to what Ted, was saying in that she was in sin.

Larry, picks up on what Ted, missed and pointed out that Jennifer, did not think she was in sin.  Jennifer, as we see is confused and ends up saying contradictory things depending on the situation:

1- When Bob, says she needs to repent she says it is not a sin

2- When Ted says we should not judge each-other because we all sin she agrees fully  with him and wanted to know why Bob, called her out on sin if he was a sinner to

If Jennifer, wants to maintain that homosexuality is not in conflict with Christianity, then she needs to stand on that and be able to defend it when we put her beliefs under biblical scrutiny.

If She agrees that it is sin then she needs to explain the scriptural admonitions given in 1 John about how Christians are suppose to live lives that are not in darkness but rather in the light.


@ 5:40-6:36 


Pastor Bob, does a great job here explaining that to be a sinner or to commit a sin as we all due is NOT the same as having sin rule my life:

                         (Romans 6:6}
"We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."

               
                         (Romans 6:1-4 ESV)

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."





                        (Galatians 5:24)
"And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."


                      (Galatians 2:20)
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

                    (Romans 6:13 ESV)
"Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness."




@6:50 Jennifer, says she is not trying to tell people to walk her path

Response

There is more to it then that. Jennifer has made a living singing songs about Christ and having a biblical worldview. She is now living a life that is blatantly in conflict with what she has made her living doing and whether she likes it or not or agrees with it or not she is sending a confusing message to people.

On top of it she claims that her views somehow line up with biblical theology!


@7:00-8:15 Ted, talks about the sanctification process and points out that we all have sins we struggle with and gives an example of three people where one struggles with smoking, the other with drinking, and the other with sexual sin and they are all convicted and want to stop.

Response

Ted, seems oblivious to the fact that Jennifer, does NOT think she is in sin and is NOT convicted to stop and that is the difference. Of course we sin but as has been pointed out Ad nauseam we do not continue to PRACTICE sin and let it rule our lives. I am baffled as to why Ted, can not see this?
Secondly, Ted, says that we should not be just calling out one sin. He again completely misses the point. The problem is Jennifer, is a public figure and has a big following and claiming the homosexual lifestyle is consistent with biblical theology.

As Christians we MUST publicly address these claims and challenge them. It is not a personal attack but rather defending biblical theology from those who want to distort it and potentially lead others astray!



(1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV)
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”



This is written TO Christians! The attitude that we all sin so who are you to judge is confused and an enemy of Holy Scripture!  It is our job to judge wicked and evil behavior and stand up for truth and if need remove those who claim to be a Christian from the flock.

To not do as instructed in 1 Corinthians 5 is to be blatantly rebellious to the scriptures and assumes we know whats best rather than trusting in our Sovereign God, who told us what to do.


@8:50 Larry ask's the pastor if he feels bad when he hears that homosexuals have been murdered or kill themselves.

Response

This is a "appeal to pitty". No Christian should ever hate someone. This is often brought up and it is used to get pitty and to make one feel as though if you do not agree with the homosexual life style that  you are a bigot and Larry, even said that Bob, had a part in it when homosexuals are murdered or kill themselves.

Let me make two points:

1- We are to love all people including homosexuals. Why we do not agree with the behavior we love them and treat them like everyone else because they are made in the image of God.

2-When homosexuals claim the name of Christ, and claim that the homosexual lifestyle is not in conflict with the teachings of scripture then we MUST  confront the claims!

As John Calvin said:

 "A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."

We must be willing to defend God's word from all those who would attack it. When atheists or skeptics attack Holy Scripture they are on the outside and we can know what to expect. The greatest danger are those who are in the body of Christ, and are misleading and poising other members in the body.


@9:00  Larry, ask's pastor Bob, if he ate shellfish because in the OT there are passages about eating shellfish. Pastor Bob, say's God changed his mind in the NT

Response

I was shocked when I heard him say this. God did NOT and can NOT change his mind! To even suggest a thing would be to strike a blow at God's very nature and attributes.

I know pastor Bob, was not trying to do that but to claim God changes his mind will question numerous attributes of God.  Lets look at why God can not change his mind:


Biblical Basis


                 (Numbers 23:19)
"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

                 (James 1:17)
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

                (Malachi 3:6)
“For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."

               (1 Samuel 15:29 ) 
"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”


In order to change your mind you would need to be given information you did not at one time have. However God is omniscient meaning he knows ALL things and thus can NOT change his mind




(Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)

"remember the former things of old;

for I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like me,

declaring the end from the beginning

and from ancient times things not yet done,

saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

and I will accomplish all my purpose,"



(Psalm 147:5 ESV)

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;
his understanding is beyond measure."



Much more could be said and I will tackle this question in a more in-depth manner in a future post . For now here is a great link to learn and study the attributes of God
(http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Gods-Attributes/)

Here is a fantastic book on God's attributes! I can not underscore how important it is for us to get the attributes of God right.



@10:15 Larry, points out the obvious that If God can change his mind on the shellfish then why can't he change his mind on homosexuality?




Response


Pastor Bob, got himself in a pickle with his answer and that is why I would refer those reading this to the links and scriptures I posted.

The answer to Larry's question is that God did NOT and can NOT change his mind. Israel was under a theocracy, meaning God himself was their ruler. He instituted certain civil and ceremonial laws for them to practice to keep them set apart from the surrounding pagan nations. God never changed his mind but from the foundations of the world knew how he would accomplish his will.

When Christ came he fulfilled the law:




                    (Matthew 5:17 ESV)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."


Far from "changing his mind" Christ, accomplished the mission that was set forth before him!

I know pastor Bob, was not trying to demean or take away from God's attributes at all and I am not going after him personally because I believe he is a man of God, and a great bible teacher. It is the answer he gave that I am demonstrating is not biblical and will cause major problems theologically down the road if one holds this view.

Here is a short video of Dr. Michael Brown explaining why we can eat shellfish today and homosexuality is still wrong.

@10:30 Larry ask's pastor Bob, if God can give new revelation (such on homosexuality now being ok) to which Bob, essentially defends the cessasionist view that God is not still giving new revelation.

This of course would open up another WHOLE can of worms and maybe a future blog post.  I would hold to the cessaionist view. Please read this article so you have a correct understanding of what this view is.

It does not say God can not do miracles or heal people today. Sadly many people will have a completely false view of this position and reject it and they do not know what the view teaches.

My friend Mathew Graham wrote this article
( http://www.grahamapologetics.com/pdf/Cessation_Apostolic_Sign_Gifts.pdf)

Here are several more articles defending the classical cessationist view
(http://www.the-highway.com/charismatic_index.html)


As we see there are a lot of issues that come out in this interview and I have tried to address them fairly but also from a biblical world view!

Part 4 will be coming soon!

Jennifer Knapp on Larry King: Part 2

We continue with part 2 of this interview:

@ 1:30 Larry, ask's her if her being a homosexual was a choice to which she say's she does not know.

Response

Homosexuality is a behavior of a male or female. People are not born 'Homosexual" or "heterosexual" as though we are two different classes of people but rather we are born male or female!  As of now the evidence does not show homosexuality is due to biology because if it was we would expect to see the same behavior with identical twins, but we do not.

Secondly, as Dr. Frank Turek, points out that it would seem hard for homosexuals to pass there genes on being that they can not procreate with the same sex.  (http://www.crossexamined.org/blog/?p=214)


@ 1:45 Jennifer, says love is a choice but not sure about her sexuality

Response

This would bring up another excellent point. Even if a person was born a homosexual, the fact that love is a choice does not mean they have to act on their feelings. As a Christian the bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin:


Lev 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."


Lev 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them"


1 Cor 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Biblically there is no question as to what the Christian position is and so if a person was born gay and are a Christian, they should NOT act on those feelings.  Remember that if we belong to Christ that we are NOT our own!

(1 Corinthians 6:12-20 ESV)
“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."

As a Christian, the bible is the authority.  Jennifer, herself said love was a choice and just because you have certain desires it does not make it right to act on those desires. We have fallen in Adam, and so we inherit his sin nature and we have desires to do all kinds of evil things that we can not act on:

Romans 7:5 "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death."

Romans 8:4 "in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."


(Romans 7:22-25 ESV)
"For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin".


@ 5:50 into the interview Larry ask's Pastor Bob how he knew he like women and if he made a choice to be heterosexual

Response

This is baffling to me. How do men know they like women? Because it is the obvious design of man and woman! Not to sound crude but the male penis was NEVER intended to go into the rectum which is what gets rid of the bodies toxins and poisons. Nature itself speaks pretty clearly that men and women are suppose to be attracted to eachother or we would not even have people here to ask the question!

Secondly, the plain facts about homosexuality really speak for themselves!

1-According to the latest data from the Center for Disease Control, homosexual men comprise more than 80 percent of sexually transmitted HIV cases despite comprising less than 2 percent of the population.
(CLICK HERE  http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/surveillance/resources/reports/2009report/pdf/table1a.pdf )

2- The FDA says that men who have sex with men have an HIV infection rate 60 times higher than the general population.  ( http://www.nationaljournal.com/healthcare/u-s-to-take-another-look-at-gay-blood-donation-ban-20110726 )

3-Norman Geisler, and Frank Turek wrote a book called "Legislating Morality".   On page 132 of their book they have a chart in which they show statistics taken from Omega Study Results, a study comparing obituaries of 6,737 homosexuals to a sample of heterosexuals, the results speak for themselves ( Note LTSP refers to long term sexual partner)



Married men
The average live to be 75
Percent living past 65 80%

Single or Divorced Men
Average age 57

32% Percentage living past 65

Homosexual Men
Without Aids

Average age 42 and only 9% live past 65

Homosexual Men
Without Aids Average age 41
With an LTSP 7% live past 65

Homosexual Men
With Aids an LTSP Average age 39 Less than 2% make it past 65

The source is Paul Cameron PhD, William Playfair, M.D., and Stephen Wellum, The longevity of Homosexuals: Before and after the aids epidemic,” The Omega Journal of Death and Dying 29:3 1994 249-272


It is not rocket science here Larry!


@ 6:50 Larry, suggests that because God is omnipotent that he therfore created homosexuality.

Response

This is absurd! Homosexuality is a behavior, NOT a thing that is to be created. People acting on their own free will act in ways that will either bring glory and honor to the Creator, or they will use their free will for evil.

The bible is clear that God did not create evil in the sense of moral acts:

James 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one".

James 1:14 "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."



@ 7:30 Jennifer claims that the greek words for homosexuality did not exist.

Response

This is nothing more than a smoke screen. The fact that a language may not use the WORD "Homosexual is irrelevant. The bible does not use the word Trinity, nor is the word "Bible" or "Monotheism" used.

The word  does not have to be their but rather the concept. Just as the word "Monotheism" is not in the bible does not negate the bible clearly teaches that only one God exists and has revealed himself in three persons.



Let us look at

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."


Whether the Greek has the word "homosexual" or not is irrelevant. One can read the passage and understand it is DESCRIBING homosexual behavior.


Sadly the Pastor does not catch this and responds by saying he believes the word of God is inspired which did not at all address her question and the objection that she raised.

Jennifer Knapp on Larry King: Part 1

The well known singer and Christian music artist Jennifer Knapp, reveals that she has embraced the homosexual lifestyle.  I am going to be breaking down the different segments of this interview as I see some things that should have been clarified but do to time was not able to have the attention it deserves!

Lets jump right in with Part 1:

At 5:45 minutes in Larry ask's if her view of  homosexuality is in anyway a conflict with her or if she thinks the bible speaks against it.

Response

Jennifer, says that anytime we read a book we read it through our own life experience and what we want to bring out of it.

Is this how we should be reading the text? The question should NEVER be "What does the text mean to me", but rather who is the author?, who is the audience?, and what is he saying to the people whom he is writing to?   Word's have meanings and we can not just interpret them in anyway we want.

To justify her position that the bible does not condemn homosexual behavior she has to appeal to interpreting the bible through her own life experiences and what she wants to get out of it rather than researching who the author is, who his audience is, etc.  Unfortunately this is what happens when one abandons good hermenudicts (The art and science of biblical interpretation) and interprets scripture through their own frame work of  "what they want to get out of it."

Click Here for a explanation of the "Historical Grammatical Method" of hermenudicts .
http://www.messiahskingdom.com/resources/Interpretation/hermeneutics-guide.pdf

How To Expose Bad Arguments

I am going to break down this video and point out some logical fallacies made.

A logical fallacy Clearly defined is a error in reasoning used to support or refute an argument, excluding simple unintended mistakes


The first 1:30


Here the argument is made that homosexuals should have the same rights as other Americans and if they are denied marriage then the discrimination is comparable to that of the 1960s and even earlier where black people were not given basic human rights.

Begging The Question

This is where one assumes what it is they are trying to prove. The reason the opposition is even having a debate is over whether being gay is a choice or whether one is born that way biologically. Whoopi starts from the hidden premise that gays are born that way, without addressing the question, are they born that way?


This argument is fallacious because being Black or White is not a choice, a person can not change who they are biologically because it is intrinsic to their human nature. So here they have confused a person’s essence with ones function. A persons behavior is not always a direct result of there nature. For example, some people shoplift, but shoplifting is not intrinsic to a person’s nature, but is an example of how they have used there free will to do a bad act which is a function of there free will.

Another point to be made is that the scientific evidence is far from conclusive that a person is born gay. Of course pursuing the same sex is not against the law, but trying to redefine marriage by marrying the same sex is.

Secondly gays have the same rights as everyone else; they are allowed to get married, just not to the same sex.



1:30-2:00

Appeal To Pity

An appeal to pity attempts to persuade using emotion—specifically, sympathy—rather than evidence. Playing on the pity that someone feels for an individual or group can certainly affect what that person thinks about the group; this is a highly effective, and so quite common, fallacy.

Nobody on the other side of the debate believes that gays should be lynched or shot in the street; this is Whoopi at her best trying to cloud the argument by appealing to emotions.

What about a Father that wants to marry his daughter who is over the age of 18 and is still married to his wife, should he be allowed? If not why not, who are we to discriminate? If the argument is that we should legalize certain behaviors because people should not be discriminated against, then where do you draw the line? Eventually unless you want complete chaos, then the man that wants to marry his goat is going to be discriminated against, the question is what is best for society as a whole, not the particular individual whose behavior will have an adverse effect on society.



3:00

reductio ad absurdum

1. (Philosophy / Logic) a method of disproving a proposition by showing that its inevitable consequences would be absurd


This applies when Whoopi states that “If you do not approve of gay marriage, then do not marry a gay person”.

I wonder what Whoopi would say in the 1800s to a slave owner who told her that he was doing nothing wrong by owning slaves and she should keep her nose out of it, after all, if you don’t like slavery don’t own a slave!

Same thing for drugs or prostitution, who are we to try and outlaw prostitution, if you don’t like it, don’t get a prostitute.

This type of logic is infantile at best. Again as a society we have a responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the people.


4:20

Red Herring
Explanation
The red herring is as much a debate tactic as it is a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic.
When did somebody bring in religion other than Whoopi? One does not need religion or the bible to demonstrate that homosexuality is bad for society and will have negative affects on the society as a whole. Here I will give a few stats from Dr. Frank Turek and Dr. Norman Geislers book “Legislating Morality”


On page 132 of their book they have a chart in which they show statistics taken from Omega Study Results, a study comparing obituaries of 6,737 homosexuals to a sample of heterosexuals, the results speak for themselves ( Note LTSP refers to long term sexual partner)



Married men
The average live to be 75
Percent living past 65 80%

Single or Divorced Men
Average age 57

32% Percentage living past 65

Homosexual Men
Without Aids

Average age 42 and only 9% live past 65

Homosexual Men
Without Aids Average age 41
With an LTSP 7% live past 65

Homosexual Men
With Aids an LTSP Average age 39 Less than 2% make it past 65

The source is Paul Cameron PhD, William Playfair, M.D., and Stephen Wellum, The longevity of Homosexuals: Before and after the aids epidemic,” The Omega Journal of Death and Dying 29:3 1994 249-272


The stats speak for themselves; one does not need to bring in religion or the Bible to demonstrate that homosexual behavior is bad for society.



This brings me to another point. Homosexuality has certainly not been shown to be something biological but a choice. However, let’s say a person is born with certain homosexual tendencies why would that be any kind of argument to promote homosexual relationships? What about those born with a propensity to violence, does the cop let the wife beater off because it was in his genes and he just can’t help it? How bout the person born with a propensity to abuse alcohol, should he be let off if he gets caught driving drunk, after all he was born with the bent towards alcoholism?

Of course not, this in called the Naturalistic Fallacy, that is it feels natural or normal it must be morally acceptable, the reasons shown above demonstrate that even if a person was born as a homosexual ( which the scientific evidence does not support) that still would not be a reason to promote same sex behavior and certainly not marriage.


4:36 -5:00

Begging The Question


Whoopi and her co-host again begs the question, the abortion debate is centered around whether the baby in the womb is a human and if so, those who are pro-life say then it is not the woman’s right to kill the baby. Whoopi doesn’t address the argument as to whether the baby is a separate human in the womb and jumps right to her conclusion that a woman should have the right to do what she wants with her body, but again that is the debate, is it her body? If the baby in the womb is a separate person, then it’s not her body but the body of a separate human that she wants to eliminate and outside the womb there is a term for this, we call it murder.


5:45

Whoopi brings in the church and state argument, but as shown above one does not need to bring in the bible nor religion to demonstrate homosexuality is harmful to society, and just as we do not promote drugs and other activities that will devastate a society, neither should we promote sexual behavior that also has bad effects on society. I just showed the stats of the health of those who participate in this, there is so much more on how children are affected without a mom and dad growing up.


7:00

Whoopi is right, this issue has many ramifications to come and she should pay attention to the research done and educate herself before arguing from nothing more than “outrage”.


7:20

Straw Man Fallacy

A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.


She again confuses a person’s essence with a persons function. Being blond or having white skin is not a choice; neither does it deal with moral choices, sexual behavior does.

Feel free to leave comments

Dr. Albert Mohler on Larry King Discussing Homosexuality

Southern Seminary president Dr. Albert Mohler was on Larry King Live (CNN) to discuss homosexuality in the church