"Nearly a dozen of high school journalists walked out of a lecture by Dan Savage, the prominent ant-bullying advocate that pioneered the 'It Gets Better' campaign. His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle. Mr Savage called the defectors 'pansy-assed' and would not back down from his comments. I thought this would be about anti-bullying,' Rick Tuttle, the journalism adviser for Sutter Union High School in California, told Fox News. 'It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs."
This is the description of the youtube video I am going to be addressing. We will see who the real bully is and why "tolerance" has no place for the militant homosexuals who will ridicule, mock and belittle any and all who oppose their worldview.
I am going to break this video down and demonstrate where Mr. Savage not only ripped scripture out of context but also gave us all a lesson on how to commit logical fallacies!
@0:50 Dan says we should ignore the BS in the bible.
Response
Sadly, Dan assumes that the bible is full of BS and does not demonstrate that it is. As we will see he brings up other issues like slavery, etc but this does not show the bible is BS and should be ignored.
Anyone who even glances at my blog will see that the purpose this blog exists is to defend the historic Christian faith. I would recommend the book :
"I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist".
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615
I am not going to give a defense for God's existence and the reliability of the bible in this post, but right off the start we need to question his assumption that the bible is BS. If his assumption is wrong then instead of sticking our head in the sand and "Ignoring it" we may want to listen to the omniscient Creator who knows all!
(1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
@0:50 Here Dan claims that the bible is a "pro-slavery" book and slave owners use to wave the bible over their slaves head's
Response
This is an old claim that keeps getting "parroted" by those who want to attack the bible. These claims have been answered over and over again. I realize some may have not seen how these claims are answered so I have written a brief reply to this claim that the bible supports slavery:
We need to remember that much of the OT Israel was under a theocracy meaning God, him self was their ruler. Israel had to obey the civil, ceremonial and moral laws of God.
So for example eating certain foods or wearing certain clothes were forbidden because they were to be separate from the pagan nations around them. We are told in
Mathew 5:17 " “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
So when Jesus took on a human nature and came to earth and was crucified and rose from the dead he had fulfilled the law.
So we as Christians do not follow the civil and ceremonial laws because Christ fulfilled the law. However Jesus reaffirms that we are to keep the moral law (The 10 commandments).
As far as slavery goes let me say a couple of things
1-Slavery back then is not to be equated with the slavery of the south.
Leviticus 25 points out several things for us to show that slavery then was not like the 1800s
-God instructed Israelites to not mistreat slaves:
Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
...you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
...you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.
2-Injuring a slave merited punishment (Exodous 21:20) and killing a slave meant the owner himself would face the death penalty
Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."
So slavery in the OT was not the same as that in the 1800s
Secondly many slaves volunteered to work as a slave because it meant them and their families would be taken care of.
Exodous 21:5-6 " But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever."
The Old Testament is clear in its position on involuntary slavery: it was punishable by death:
Exodus 21:16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death."
Deuteronomy 24:7
"If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you."
Thirdly, The fact that God permitted such things as slavery does NOT mean the bible justified it.
In Mathew 19:4 Jesus addressing the issue of divorce he told the Jews that God permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts.
Permitting certain things and Condoning them are not the same regardless of how bad the skeptic wants to assault the bible, this argument fails for the reasons pointed out above!
There have been numerous responses to this claim. I would suggest Dr. Paul Copan's book:
(http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-Moral-Monster-Testament/dp/080107275)
2-As far as his comments that slave owners using the bible to justify slavery is irrelevant. The fact that some people misuse the bible like the KKK or other groups is not a problem with the author but rather the one reading it. Charles Darwin's writings were FULL of racist venom:
"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla (Darwin 1887:156)."
So should we blame Darwin's work for the KKK? Something tells me Mr. Savage would not go for that! To claim that because the bible has been abused is the fault of the author is just absurd!
@1:40 Dan, refers to Sam Harris, in asking the question "If the bible could get something wrong as something simple like slavery, then why not on something complicated like human sexuality:
Response
Some things need to be pointed out:
1-The bible does not condone slavery just as the bible does not condone divorce but it was permitted.
2-The evidence certainly does not show that one is "born gay". However even if one was born gay the bible is clear that the behavior, or acting on the homosexual desires is where the sin comes in.
Because man is fallen and sinful we all have evil, fallen desires. The fact we may feel a certain way does not make it right to ACT on those desires. A married man may see other women he finds attractive and it is a natural instinct but certainly he would not justify his behavior as being natural and thus not morally wrong.
So the bible does not really say if one is born gay or not. I do not suspect they are and the scientific evidence certainly does not show that they are. The bible does speak to homosexual activity as being sinful.
3- Sam Harris is an out-spoken atheist and to then appeal to an objective morality to say that slavery is wrong is laughable. For people to know slavery is wrong we MUST know what is right.
Like C.S Lewis, said he would not know a crooked line unless you first have a straight line. You do not know a behavior is wrong unless there is an unchanging standard for what is right.
Here is a great article by Dr. Craig on the Moral Argument
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument-for-god
Here is Dr. Craig answering Sam Harris objection's
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/sam-harris-on-objective-moral-values-and-duties
Here is the debate Dr. Craig had with Sam Harris. You can decide for yourself what arguments are better:
@1:45-2:15 Dan continues to mock and twist scripture asking why don't we stone women today for the same offense
Response
The answer is pretty simple. Because we are NOT Israel Dan! We are not under a theocracy like Israel was and we do not follow the civil and ceremonial laws because they were fulfilled in Christ. We do however follow the moral law and having sex before marriage is still sin and unless it is repented of and the person throws himself at the mercy of Christ, then on Judgement day they will reap what they have sowed.
If you want to mock and ridicule the scriptures Mr. Savage then present an actual argument. Ranting about how much you hate the bible and then building straw man arguments may make you look really cool in front of a bunch of high school atheists, but I assure you sir, that if you used those same arguments against a trained apologist he would level you in ten seconds.
@2:17-3:00 Dan informs those in the crowd to let the Christians (who walked out on him during his tantrum) that he was done beating up the bible and how they were pansies when pushed.
Response
Done beating up the bible? You made false accusations about slavery, you took the OT scriptures that were for Israel and tried to apply them to us today and claim you have beat up the bible? What you have done is give straw-man arguments and ranted and called names like a child.
Christians actually got up and walked out NOT because you hurt their feelings and you just "beat up the bible". They walked out because you are the one who has the microphone and nobody their can publicly get on a microphone and challenge each of your bogus claims and cross examine you. Real easy to throw mud when people are not allowed to have a microphone to challenge you!
Secondly, you sir are the only bully I see in that clip as you belittle the bible which millions of people would give their life for and have died for and then you turn to calling names and taunting them like a child.
You have an open invitation on this blog ANYTIME to come on this blog and present your arguments.
Granted, I am not in highschool and you are not the one controlling who can speak or ask you questions but I would LOVE to engage you on the arguments you brought up to mock the bible.
It is no secret who the real bullies are. Homosexuals do not just want tolerance but DEMAND you accept and gleefully approve of their actions or they will attack you relentlessly!
Why I do not dislike or have anything personally against Mr. Savage I do take offense to making straw-man arguments against the bible and resorting to name calling and ridicule, all the while giving a talk on "anti-bullying". It is clear who the real bully is!
Permitting certain things and Condoning them are not the same regardless of how bad the skeptic wants to assault the bible, this argument fails for the reasons pointed out above!
There have been numerous responses to this claim. I would suggest Dr. Paul Copan's book:
2-As far as his comments that slave owners using the bible to justify slavery is irrelevant. The fact that some people misuse the bible like the KKK or other groups is not a problem with the author but rather the one reading it. Charles Darwin's writings were FULL of racist venom:
"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla (Darwin 1887:156)."
So should we blame Darwin's work for the KKK? Something tells me Mr. Savage would not go for that! To claim that because the bible has been abused is the fault of the author is just absurd!
@1:40 Dan, refers to Sam Harris, in asking the question "If the bible could get something wrong as something simple like slavery, then why not on something complicated like human sexuality:
Response
Some things need to be pointed out:
1-The bible does not condone slavery just as the bible does not condone divorce but it was permitted.
2-The evidence certainly does not show that one is "born gay". However even if one was born gay the bible is clear that the behavior, or acting on the homosexual desires is where the sin comes in.
Because man is fallen and sinful we all have evil, fallen desires. The fact we may feel a certain way does not make it right to ACT on those desires. A married man may see other women he finds attractive and it is a natural instinct but certainly he would not justify his behavior as being natural and thus not morally wrong.
So the bible does not really say if one is born gay or not. I do not suspect they are and the scientific evidence certainly does not show that they are. The bible does speak to homosexual activity as being sinful.
3- Sam Harris is an out-spoken atheist and to then appeal to an objective morality to say that slavery is wrong is laughable. For people to know slavery is wrong we MUST know what is right.
Like C.S Lewis, said he would not know a crooked line unless you first have a straight line. You do not know a behavior is wrong unless there is an unchanging standard for what is right.
Here is a great article by Dr. Craig on the Moral Argument
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument-for-god
Here is Dr. Craig answering Sam Harris objection's
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/sam-harris-on-objective-moral-values-and-duties
Here is the debate Dr. Craig had with Sam Harris. You can decide for yourself what arguments are better:
@1:45-2:15 Dan continues to mock and twist scripture asking why don't we stone women today for the same offense
Response
The answer is pretty simple. Because we are NOT Israel Dan! We are not under a theocracy like Israel was and we do not follow the civil and ceremonial laws because they were fulfilled in Christ. We do however follow the moral law and having sex before marriage is still sin and unless it is repented of and the person throws himself at the mercy of Christ, then on Judgement day they will reap what they have sowed.
If you want to mock and ridicule the scriptures Mr. Savage then present an actual argument. Ranting about how much you hate the bible and then building straw man arguments may make you look really cool in front of a bunch of high school atheists, but I assure you sir, that if you used those same arguments against a trained apologist he would level you in ten seconds.
@2:17-3:00 Dan informs those in the crowd to let the Christians (who walked out on him during his tantrum) that he was done beating up the bible and how they were pansies when pushed.
Response
Done beating up the bible? You made false accusations about slavery, you took the OT scriptures that were for Israel and tried to apply them to us today and claim you have beat up the bible? What you have done is give straw-man arguments and ranted and called names like a child.
Christians actually got up and walked out NOT because you hurt their feelings and you just "beat up the bible". They walked out because you are the one who has the microphone and nobody their can publicly get on a microphone and challenge each of your bogus claims and cross examine you. Real easy to throw mud when people are not allowed to have a microphone to challenge you!
Secondly, you sir are the only bully I see in that clip as you belittle the bible which millions of people would give their life for and have died for and then you turn to calling names and taunting them like a child.
You have an open invitation on this blog ANYTIME to come on this blog and present your arguments.
Granted, I am not in highschool and you are not the one controlling who can speak or ask you questions but I would LOVE to engage you on the arguments you brought up to mock the bible.
It is no secret who the real bullies are. Homosexuals do not just want tolerance but DEMAND you accept and gleefully approve of their actions or they will attack you relentlessly!
Why I do not dislike or have anything personally against Mr. Savage I do take offense to making straw-man arguments against the bible and resorting to name calling and ridicule, all the while giving a talk on "anti-bullying". It is clear who the real bully is!
Gays only sin when they act on their natural, God-given sexuality? What nonsense.
ReplyDeleteDr. Ellis, thanks for your comment. What do you mean by "God given sexuality"? The statement is ambiguous. If you are saying they were created with desires for homosexuality then according to Christian theology you would be in error. Let me quot from the Westminster Confession of Faith
ReplyDeleteCHAPTER VI.
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of
the Punishment thereof.
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.
God did not create man fallen, Adam fell and thus the whole human race became corrupted with sin. Humans are born with all kind of sinful desires, anger, murder, theft, adultery, etc this of course is not because that is hoe God made them, but rather because we are fallen sons and daughters of Adam.