Wednesday, August 15, 2012

Trinity vs Oneness Part 2

Here is the second half of my discussion with my friend. The conversation is unedited and moves very quickly so please forgive the grammatical errors.   Thanks again to Lamarie for the good discussion and thoughtful questions!

Lamarie Austin Okay, still reading, so Devin, here's another question/observation-where does the concept of omnipresence factor in to the personhood concept of the Trinity teaching-specifically, if we believe that God can be all places, all things, to anyone anywhere simultaneously, why confine Him to the person terminology? The only place in scripture where I see any reference to the terminology of personhood was Jesus as the Son in Hebrews 1:3. Again, not speaking of Father Son Spirit, trying to flesh out the modes vs. persons disagreement. Sabbelianism/Trinitarianism

Devin Pellew Right, when I say "person" I am reffering to the metaphysical sense. NOT a body. We would all agree that God has Mind, Will and Emotions. This is to differintiate from a JW for example who will say the Holy Spirit is not personal but rather a forcelike electricity

Devin Pellew So when I say a person I am not meaning in a physical sense as in a body. Just as Man is a body/soiul unity and we have an immaterial aspect

Lamarie Austin foreclike electricity?!! what???? sorry that one made me crack up!

Devin Pellew Oh yeah, that is what JWs believe regarding the Holy Spirit. That it is God's active force. I would also point out scripture refers to all 3 persons as "He" and "Him" using "person" language

Lamarie Austin I think the personhood issue trips alot of people up! so what about the omnipresence-what about modalism is wrong in light of ominipresence and God's ability to be multiple whatever simultaneously??? Does God really ever have to be seperated into persons to do anything if He is omnipresent?

Devin Pellew Omni presence has nothing to do with The Trinity. Even Muslims and Judaism believe that. You are confusing His "unity" which is His essence with "tri-unity"

Lamarie Austin how so?

Devin Pellew because even Judaism who is unitarian and denies the Trinity believes God is omni present

Devin Pellew Tri unity has to do with how many persons make up the one God. Not the classical attributes

Lamarie Austin but the Jews will come to the faith in the Lord Jesus according to Revelation, a good bit of them will. And Christianity/Judeo Christianity builds on the Jewish teaching of the Old Testament. If Jews are unitarians, how did Crhistians become tri-unitarians??

Devin Pellew You are bringining in new topics to the question. The jews who reject Christ now will not be going to heaven.

2-The Trinity was revealed in the OT and more light was given and more fully revealed in the NT

Devin Pellew Even Abraham believed in Christ, though did not fully understand the doctrine.

Devin Pellew Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
(Galatians 3:16-18 ESV)

Lamarie Austin It's all the same topic, just branching out a bit-No, I don't think Jews who dont receive Jesus are going to heaven. I do believe many who are blind now will not always be blind. And we are seeds of Abraham, so I disagree with this last claim about Him not fully understanding the doctrine. He knew God. His unitarian God. He just did not live long enough to see His unitarian God wrapped in human flesh as the atonement for our sin. So I don't know about fully understanding the doctrine, because we are the seed of Abraham and if Abraham had some different doctrine than we've got, we have a fundamental problem.

Lamarie Austin So, I'm still trying to understand how you are affirming Jews are unitarians/which would make the OT unitarian, right? and how we go from unitarianism to tri-unitarianism.

Devin Pellew All 3 persons are all called God, and we are told there is one God. The Father and Son are not the same person. And the Holy Spirit is NOT the same person as the Son.

The Father sent the Son. The Son did not send the Father. (John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14)
John 5:37, “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."

Jesus came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of the Father.
John 6:38, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

They are not the same person in differeing modes. The text is clear on this

Devin Pellew The jews reject Jesus is God correct? Unitarians believe That there is not more than one person in the God head

Devin Pellew Or

Devin Pellew That God can "change" or undergo differing modes

Devin Pellew Lamarie, is it your view that the Father and Son are really the same person with different titles?

Lamarie Austin I believe it's the same God.

Lamarie Austin Ominipresence I still see as a factor

Devin Pellew So when the Son is praying, he is praying to himself?

Lamarie Austin personhood is a confinment/restriction of omnipresence in how God reveals himself to men

Lamarie Austin the Son is praying to the father, Jesus says this in the bible.

Devin Pellew So the Father and son are not the same person?

Devin Pellew You are defining person only as physical and thats where the problem is coming in at

Devin Pellew So the Father and son are not the same person?

Lamarie Austin I'm not, I'm trying to understand why we need the terminology of personhood in reference to an Omnipresent God. Who can be as much and as varied as He wants all at the same time.

Devin Pellew Because scripture uses terms like "He and "him"

Lamarie Austin Who can be Father and Son and Spirit all in Human Form, at the Same time....

Lamarie Austin Never leaving Heaven bankrupt

Lamarie Austin Right, He can be Omnipresent, can He not????

Devin Pellew Hold on, trying to see what you are saying

Devin Pellew So does the Father and Son exist at the same time?

Lamarie Austin I think So, Yes. And exact same God, because He can Be Both Father Son, Comforter, everything All at One time

Devin Pellew Lamarie, who is Jesus talkink to when he is praying?

Lamarie Austin He says the Father!

Devin Pellew If you are saying that Jesus IS the Father, then Jesus is praying to himself

Devin Pellew ECACTLY :)

Lamarie Austin what????

Devin Pellew You are saying the Son and the Father are the same person right?

Devin Pellew I understand they are both God

Devin Pellew I get that

Lamarie Austin you're trying to back me into a theological corner again! lolol Seriously though, back to the confinement of personhood and the Idea of Omnipresence....

Lamarie Austin personhood and Omnipresence?

Devin Pellew Your theology itself puts you in a corner

Devin Pellew Ok, what is the problem?

Devin Pellew Define what you mean by personhood?

Devin Pellew Do you think that to have personhood one MUST be physical?

Lamarie Austin that's what I'm asking you-If God is Omnipresent and Can be in multiple places doing multiple things all at once, why do we need to use the term person at all?

Devin Pellew Because he has the characteristics of what we describe as personhood. God has a Will, God has a mind, right He is not a supercomputer. He interacts with us and is personable correct?

I will post the 3rd and final part of the debate this weekend. 

No comments:

Post a Comment